Not in near as great a volume as during the presidential years, but there’s the usual drum beat of ‘Dems bad so don’t bother cause it’s all useless’ type posts. Might be that I see less though having defederated the triad when I switched from Lemmy to Piefed.
Everyone knows that in a democracy the only two options are voting and firebombing Walmart. You can’t do both, and anyone who suggests otherwise is blue MAGA.
God that’s become such a hot term here lately. Particularly among the type of people who will go into repeating the same phrase over and over when they get shut down in an argument.
People on lemmy be like “your strategy of doing literally anything else pales in comparison to mine of voting for genocidal geriatrics” and then they go on and lose the election anyway
In the real world there’s plenty of marxist-leninist organisations in the west that do take action. One might wonder why these groups are cracked down on viciously as soon as they get any traction, while this “just vote for progressives” idealism has been allowed to flourish for decades now.
“MLs don’t do anything!”
Actually they do.
“Well they don’t do enough!”
Because whenever an ML group gets political traction, it gets targeted harshly by the state
“Defeatist! Russian propagandist”
The fact that you are allowed to run your mouth about your little idealistic strategy of “changing the democrats from the inside”, while any actual vector of progress gets shut down, should give you a hint on how viable your idea is. Either that or, you know, look at the many many many many times you’ve tried this so far, to no success.
You people keep acting as if you’re being told to do nothing, when all you’re told is this one thing that you keep doing does not work. I suppose acting as if you’re told to do nothing is easier than actually engaging with the people disagreeing with you
I find giving support to genociders to be detrimental to social progress. Others find it to be pointless, which is what I am pointing out to you. Somehow, you struggle with this, you’d rather argue against a position you can make up in your head. I assume because it is easier for you to argue against.
Now you are talking about others believing my level of activism? Weird non sequitor. I dont really care about that in online spaces, since I do not find them useful for political organizing. In person I find I have no issue with this, so I find it to be a non-issue. What was the point you thought you were making?
Isn’t it possible to ask some Dems to do better and maybe get rid of the geriatrics? It’s hard to include all that when pointing out to someone why “vote blue no matter who” or “vote left straight down the ballot” are not the best choices.
After all… We have “vote blue no matter who” and “vote left straight down the ballot” a few times resulting in Dems controlling the exec and leg branches which didn’t turn out so hot for a vast majority of folks.
The purpose of Vote Blue No Matter Who is just that.
Dems suck, don’t get me wrong, but there is no path to anything good through the GOP, and 3rd parties are essentially a waste.
The general idea is basically, push the Dems to a super majority for a few cycles so the GOP dies off, then split the Dems into a new Conservative (current Dems) and proper Progressive (Probably Dem Socs) parties.
Because too many people don’t have the patience or attention span to suck it up for an decade and “protest not vote” over stupid shit like Palestine/Israel being eternally at war or because a candidate didn’t campaign EXCLUSIVELY on giving trans people all the candy.
These issues are important, but maybe a bigger, more important issue is not letting the fucking Nazis take over. Because no one wins under the Nazis, not Palestine, not trans people, not women, not Hispanic people, not even white CIS asshole dudes in the end.
Yeah man, the modern day holocaust is just some silly little thing. And the Holocaust is just the only tiny little disagreement people have with the democrats. It definitely isn’t the straw that broke a very overburdened camels’ back.
Not letting the Nazis take over
Both parties are Nazis. You really seem to struggle with this. But then again, you are calling a genocide “stupid shit” and both-sidesing it, so you are pretty close to being one yourself.
Probably not, since Obama had a supermajority and yet your promised land never came to be. All we got was drone-strikes on Afghan wedding-venues, slave-trade in Libya, bailouts for stockbrokers, more deportations than under Bush and the slow deterioration of conditions that fascilitated Trumps first election victory.
Somehow this is the lefts fault, a movement that is both powerful enough to hamstring the democrats from… implementing health care? And also not powerful enough to actually listen to.
Personally I think its the fault of that dastardly parlamentarian and [insert designated villain of the week democrat]!
You know this talk of yours has been around since the 1800’s, right? All it has amounted to is running Democrats that would make Reagan look like a pinko.
Sure, get rid of the progressive ones as well as the centrist/establishment ones and then wonder why it doesn’t help when you still have the younger progressive ones and younger centrist/establishment ones.
why “vote blue no matter who” or “vote left straight down the ballot” are not the best choices.
The time to get who you want is BEFORE the general election. When it comes to the general election, a centrist/establishment Dem is still better than a fascist. So in the general, “vote blue no matter who”, but in the PRIMARY is where you support a candidate - not just with your vote, but money if you can, canvassing if you can, online discussion if you can.
people do not want to hear this but if you want to have legitimate change in 2032 it’s time to start working toward it. 2028 is not going to be the year you want.
That’s why you vote in the democratic primaries, to do that thing you just said. Then you prevent republicans from getting power in the general. It’s not hard, but leftists would have to actually vote instead of just bitching online. You wonder why democrats don’t cater to leftists? Leftists don’t fuckin vote.
In twenty years Dems have only held a supermajority for like two months and they passed the ACA. Fuck outta here with your bullshit.
The aca improved the quality of life of the average American. The aca slowed down the rapidly increasing premiums insurance companies were rolling out. The aca prevented those insurance companies from denying or gouging for preexisting conditions or removing people from insurance for developing chronic conditions. The aca was a mess and far from perfect but it absolutely was a significant improvement to the status quo and a net benefit to every citizen. And always remember that it wasn’t better due to the policy of republican obstructionism. Don’t be a fuckin idiot.
Do that after you have power. Not during an election, in ways which amplify information warfare. Like, just activate a single strategic brain cell for like three months every 4 years.
Republicans have figured this out. How long will it take progressives?
Nah, this is the standard pattern. The usual election information warfare strategy simply doesn’t scale as well for hundreds of races because it can’t be orchestrated from a top down structure, so they don’t put in the same effort. It’s meant to rely on useful idiots, teenagers, malcontents and cynics amplifying a single narrative on the Internet, which just doesn’t work when the issues are sufficiently local.
It’s honestly amazing people still fall for this though, but the evidence that it works is that they keep doing it, and gestures broadly. And also that they don’t really bother for the midterms.
Who lumped anything all into one? A young account who calls others cowards for not starting a violent uprising doesn’t suggest serious discussion material.
It’s not complicated, primaries to make progress, generals you deal with to at least reduce harm.
Well, if you’re not gonna vote, then your political opinions ain’t really worth listening to, are they? I mean, not like you could even be bothered to do the bare minimum political speech.
Bahahaha I was planning on lurking, but calling someone “lil man” in an attempt to be condescending gives off such a tiny dog syndrome vibe I just had to comment.
Read what, exactly? You decided to be a condescending asshole because he got in your head, what more context is needed? Even missing any context other than you trying to unironically use “lil man”, my comment still stands.
As is so often the case, the details matter. How blue is your city? Did your DSA candidate run as a third party, or as a Democrat after winning the democratic primary?
You added this reply less than two minutes after your original. I’d recommend looking for the “edit” button next time. It’s more polite than expecting people to keep up with the fact that you replied to yourself before anyone else even had a chance to reply to you.
Good on them, but when the long shot nobody had heard of on a national stage is barely an afterthought telling people to not vote for the less evil blue person running 49/49 with the very evil red person is helping the red person.
Turns out when you vote for that blue person, you’re electing them into office where they will go ahead and help the very evil red person on your behalf. Isn’t representative democracy grand?
Noooo you dont get it! We have to vote for them, otherwise the other genociders will win! And they’re kind of rude!! Besides, now is not the time to critique the party, as we all know, if we don’t point out the obvious flaws with our candidate, then the opponents aren’t allowed to do it either!
Look you can critique the party after the election (not really, because that’s when we have to rally around them and support them) not at the time of the primaries though, that’s when you have to advocate for your specific candidate only (and if we ratfuck them, then that’s just too bad) and only in a way where you dont critique the party. You also cant do it before elections. And obviously not during them. There’s maybe a two-week window where you can critique the democrats, as long as you are polite about it.
The best way to push the party left is to shut up and vote for it no matter what. As you can see, this has been an incredibly succesful strategy. Remember when we didnt get universal healthcare or when we didnt codify Roe v. Wade? Remember when we invaded Libya or when we decided to destroy ACORN? Or the patriot act, boy that was swell. Hey remember Jimmy Carter? He was so nice when he destroyed Cambodia. Or Clinton, good ol’ Bill! The saxophone guy who did NAFTA and bombed Yugoslavia so he could have sex with his wife again - in between his visits to Epstein island.
And what about Joe Biden?? The most progressive president since JFK! What with all the Union busting, the complete murder of MeToo, increased police budgets, arbitrary declaration of COVID being over (despite thousands still dying), his unrepentant support for Israel, all the fracking… This thing is just going so well, don’t mess it up now! One of these days we might even have a president who deports fewer people than the previous administration.
Look… I know we’re doing genocide and only paying lip-service to taking climate change seriously, but if you ever do anything but shut up and vote for Norm Respectable (previously worked at McKinsey and before that had an internship at Guantanamo Bay) then you’ll never get a partial reduction in interests on student loans given out to Pell Grant recipients who have operated volunteer institutions for two years in poor neighborhoods. The genocide will continue no matter what though.
Not in near as great a volume as during the presidential years, but there’s the usual drum beat of ‘Dems bad so don’t bother cause it’s all useless’ type posts. Might be that I see less though having defederated the triad when I switched from Lemmy to Piefed.
Am confused, how would firebombing a walmart bring change?
Saved. This should not be as applicable to lemmy as it is.
Save this one too: “I can’t even trust you to vote and/or be a poll worker, why would I trust you in a violent revolution?”
“because you can lob biological weapons at the enemy and i am very light”
Oh wow, that’s good
Cowb in shambles.
Rent free
Ex-CUSE me, but HAVE you firebombed a Walmart? No? Then shut up!
(I’m kidding, I’m kidding!!! And I’m also stealing the image as well…) :)
That’s everyone here.
Everyone knows that in a democracy the only two options are voting and firebombing Walmart. You can’t do both, and anyone who suggests otherwise is blue MAGA.
God that’s become such a hot term here lately. Particularly among the type of people who will go into repeating the same phrase over and over when they get shut down in an argument.
People on lemmy be like “your strategy of doing literally anything else pales in comparison to mine of voting for genocidal geriatrics” and then they go on and lose the election anyway
People join and support groups that take real action. Take the houthis for example. MLs by comparison can’t even fill out a ballot.
Good argument, I will now join ISIS.
In the real world there’s plenty of marxist-leninist organisations in the west that do take action. One might wonder why these groups are cracked down on viciously as soon as they get any traction, while this “just vote for progressives” idealism has been allowed to flourish for decades now.
Ohh no there opposition to reform. Let me also discourage other forms even tho its easy to do more than one thing
“MLs don’t do anything!”
Actually they do. “Well they don’t do enough!”
Because whenever an ML group gets political traction, it gets targeted harshly by the state
“Defeatist! Russian propagandist”
The fact that you are allowed to run your mouth about your little idealistic strategy of “changing the democrats from the inside”, while any actual vector of progress gets shut down, should give you a hint on how viable your idea is. Either that or, you know, look at the many many many many times you’ve tried this so far, to no success.
You people keep acting as if you’re being told to do nothing, when all you’re told is this one thing that you keep doing does not work. I suppose acting as if you’re told to do nothing is easier than actually engaging with the people disagreeing with you
Support them anyway.
Is taking an evening to vote in primary and election day too hard for you yet expect others to velive your serious about higher level activism?
I find giving support to genociders to be detrimental to social progress. Others find it to be pointless, which is what I am pointing out to you. Somehow, you struggle with this, you’d rather argue against a position you can make up in your head. I assume because it is easier for you to argue against.
Now you are talking about others believing my level of activism? Weird non sequitor. I dont really care about that in online spaces, since I do not find them useful for political organizing. In person I find I have no issue with this, so I find it to be a non-issue. What was the point you thought you were making?
guy who thinks revolution when firebombing walmart
I mean the Revolution can have a little firebombing walmart.
As a treat.
Doesn’t help if people read “Dems bad” as “don’t bother”.
Isn’t it possible to ask some Dems to do better and maybe get rid of the geriatrics? It’s hard to include all that when pointing out to someone why “vote blue no matter who” or “vote left straight down the ballot” are not the best choices.
After all… We have “vote blue no matter who” and “vote left straight down the ballot” a few times resulting in Dems controlling the exec and leg branches which didn’t turn out so hot for a vast majority of folks.
AFAIK, not anymore. The time for that was a month ago.
The purpose of Vote Blue No Matter Who is just that.
Dems suck, don’t get me wrong, but there is no path to anything good through the GOP, and 3rd parties are essentially a waste.
The general idea is basically, push the Dems to a super majority for a few cycles so the GOP dies off, then split the Dems into a new Conservative (current Dems) and proper Progressive (Probably Dem Socs) parties.
Oh wow, sounds like a great plan, wonder why it has never panned out over the many decades of this talk.
Because too many people don’t have the patience or attention span to suck it up for an decade and “protest not vote” over stupid shit like Palestine/Israel being eternally at war or because a candidate didn’t campaign EXCLUSIVELY on giving trans people all the candy.
These issues are important, but maybe a bigger, more important issue is not letting the fucking Nazis take over. Because no one wins under the Nazis, not Palestine, not trans people, not women, not Hispanic people, not even white CIS asshole dudes in the end.
No one.
Yeah man, the modern day holocaust is just some silly little thing. And the Holocaust is just the only tiny little disagreement people have with the democrats. It definitely isn’t the straw that broke a very overburdened camels’ back.
Both parties are Nazis. You really seem to struggle with this. But then again, you are calling a genocide “stupid shit” and both-sidesing it, so you are pretty close to being one yourself.
Couldn’t possibly be because a sizable portion of the “left” is actively working against it…could it???
✊↔️🖐️💦
Probably not, since Obama had a supermajority and yet your promised land never came to be. All we got was drone-strikes on Afghan wedding-venues, slave-trade in Libya, bailouts for stockbrokers, more deportations than under Bush and the slow deterioration of conditions that fascilitated Trumps first election victory.
Somehow this is the lefts fault, a movement that is both powerful enough to hamstring the democrats from… implementing health care? And also not powerful enough to actually listen to.
Personally I think its the fault of that dastardly parlamentarian and [insert designated villain of the week democrat]!
You know this talk of yours has been around since the 1800’s, right? All it has amounted to is running Democrats that would make Reagan look like a pinko.
Preach
Yes, right up until the primary is over.
After that, it’s time to hold your nose and vote for the (D) anyway as a matter of harm reduction.
Sure, get rid of the progressive ones as well as the centrist/establishment ones and then wonder why it doesn’t help when you still have the younger progressive ones and younger centrist/establishment ones.
The time to get who you want is BEFORE the general election. When it comes to the general election, a centrist/establishment Dem is still better than a fascist. So in the general, “vote blue no matter who”, but in the PRIMARY is where you support a candidate - not just with your vote, but money if you can, canvassing if you can, online discussion if you can.
people do not want to hear this but if you want to have legitimate change in 2032 it’s time to start working toward it. 2028 is not going to be the year you want.
politics is slow as fuck.
Bingo.
That’s why you vote in the democratic primaries, to do that thing you just said. Then you prevent republicans from getting power in the general. It’s not hard, but leftists would have to actually vote instead of just bitching online. You wonder why democrats don’t cater to leftists? Leftists don’t fuckin vote.
In twenty years Dems have only held a supermajority for like two months and they passed the ACA. Fuck outta here with your bullshit.
the aca was a Republican handout to insurance companies.
The aca improved the quality of life of the average American. The aca slowed down the rapidly increasing premiums insurance companies were rolling out. The aca prevented those insurance companies from denying or gouging for preexisting conditions or removing people from insurance for developing chronic conditions. The aca was a mess and far from perfect but it absolutely was a significant improvement to the status quo and a net benefit to every citizen. And always remember that it wasn’t better due to the policy of republican obstructionism. Don’t be a fuckin idiot.
Do that after you have power. Not during an election, in ways which amplify information warfare. Like, just activate a single strategic brain cell for like three months every 4 years.
Republicans have figured this out. How long will it take progressives?
Nah, this is the standard pattern. The usual election information warfare strategy simply doesn’t scale as well for hundreds of races because it can’t be orchestrated from a top down structure, so they don’t put in the same effort. It’s meant to rely on useful idiots, teenagers, malcontents and cynics amplifying a single narrative on the Internet, which just doesn’t work when the issues are sufficiently local.
It’s honestly amazing people still fall for this though, but the evidence that it works is that they keep doing it, and gestures broadly. And also that they don’t really bother for the midterms.
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Who are “You folks”?
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Who lumped anything all into one? A young account who calls others cowards for not starting a violent uprising doesn’t suggest serious discussion material.
It’s not complicated, primaries to make progress, generals you deal with to at least reduce harm.
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Hello nine day old account encouraging people not to vote democratic!
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You can do better than that MAGAt.
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Well, if you’re not gonna vote, then your political opinions ain’t really worth listening to, are they? I mean, not like you could even be bothered to do the bare minimum political speech.
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Bahahaha I was planning on lurking, but calling someone “lil man” in an attempt to be condescending gives off such a tiny dog syndrome vibe I just had to comment.
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Read what, exactly? You decided to be a condescending asshole because he got in your head, what more context is needed? Even missing any context other than you trying to unironically use “lil man”, my comment still stands.
Nah, non-voters ain’t worth listening to.
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Oh. Did you vote?
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As is so often the case, the details matter. How blue is your city? Did your DSA candidate run as a third party, or as a Democrat after winning the democratic primary?
You added this reply less than two minutes after your original. I’d recommend looking for the “edit” button next time. It’s more polite than expecting people to keep up with the fact that you replied to yourself before anyone else even had a chance to reply to you.
Good on them, but when the long shot nobody had heard of on a national stage is barely an afterthought telling people to not vote for the less evil blue person running 49/49 with the very evil red person is helping the red person.
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Turns out when you vote for that blue person, you’re electing them into office where they will go ahead and help the very evil red person on your behalf. Isn’t representative democracy grand?
Noooo you dont get it! We have to vote for them, otherwise the other genociders will win! And they’re kind of rude!! Besides, now is not the time to critique the party, as we all know, if we don’t point out the obvious flaws with our candidate, then the opponents aren’t allowed to do it either!
Look you can critique the party after the election (not really, because that’s when we have to rally around them and support them) not at the time of the primaries though, that’s when you have to advocate for your specific candidate only (and if we ratfuck them, then that’s just too bad) and only in a way where you dont critique the party. You also cant do it before elections. And obviously not during them. There’s maybe a two-week window where you can critique the democrats, as long as you are polite about it.
The best way to push the party left is to shut up and vote for it no matter what. As you can see, this has been an incredibly succesful strategy. Remember when we didnt get universal healthcare or when we didnt codify Roe v. Wade? Remember when we invaded Libya or when we decided to destroy ACORN? Or the patriot act, boy that was swell. Hey remember Jimmy Carter? He was so nice when he destroyed Cambodia. Or Clinton, good ol’ Bill! The saxophone guy who did NAFTA and bombed Yugoslavia so he could have sex with his wife again - in between his visits to Epstein island.
And what about Joe Biden?? The most progressive president since JFK! What with all the Union busting, the complete murder of MeToo, increased police budgets, arbitrary declaration of COVID being over (despite thousands still dying), his unrepentant support for Israel, all the fracking… This thing is just going so well, don’t mess it up now! One of these days we might even have a president who deports fewer people than the previous administration.
Look… I know we’re doing genocide and only paying lip-service to taking climate change seriously, but if you ever do anything but shut up and vote for Norm Respectable (previously worked at McKinsey and before that had an internship at Guantanamo Bay) then you’ll never get a partial reduction in interests on student loans given out to Pell Grant recipients who have operated volunteer institutions for two years in poor neighborhoods. The genocide will continue no matter what though.