Weird, I actually live in the system I want to change, but I guess my experiences don’t mean anything, and I should just listen to some random internet stranger about it.
Some of us base our opinions on facts and reason. Is there any actual source on “having to wait 20-30 years for a house?” Or am I just expected to accept that claim completely uncritically?
I can’t help but notice how negative claims about communist societies are placed in this special category where expressing any sort of skepticism about them is seen as somehow morally wrong. It reminds me a lot of how questioning the religion I was raised with was seen as wrong, demonstrating a lack of faith. I’m sorry that I don’t have enough blind faith in capitalism for you and keep blaspheming against your dogma.
Weird, I actually live in the system I want to change, but I guess my experiences don’t mean anything, and I should just listen to some random internet stranger about it.
I’m sure you wouldn’t want someone to completely disregard your experiences out of hand, correct? Like how you just did to u/BlackLazor. I would hope you wouldn’t want someone to do the same to you.
Some of us base our opinions on facts and reason. Is there any actual source on “having to wait 20-30 years for a house?” Or am I just expected to accept that claim completely uncritically?
According to Quora the wait time was around 10 years. This person also says a family of four in a very tiny space (less than 20 sqm) was the norm. That account is pretty extensive, with contemporary illustrations to help you understand.
Russia Beyond says the wait time was 6-7 years. Apparently you couldn’t apply for an apartment if your current living situation was any better than a broom closet (must be less than 9 sqm per person.) This source also says that Public sector employees (doctors, teachers, etc) had a wait time of 10 or more years. Apparently one could buy an apartment for 10,000 rubles, while the average salary was 150-200 rubles, so about ten times the monthly salary.
Looking at all this, it seems to me what u/Blacklazor said was not incorrect. It may be exaggerated, but the sources say most people lived in cramped apartments with too many people per sqm, were waiting “More than 10 years” to upgrade, and didnt’ get to specify which apartment one was given, or where it was located. So far the account checks out.
You know, there really does seem to be a lot of info out there about housing in the USSR, if you’re truly serious about wanting to know and not just virtue signaling I’d reccomend doing some googles and actually reading about it. Not being facetious, it’s pretty interesting.
I can’t help but notice how negative claims about communist societies are placed in this special category where expressing any sort of skepticism about them is seen as somehow morally wrong. It reminds me a lot of how questioning the religion I was raised with was seen as wrong, demonstrating a lack of faith. I’m sorry that I don’t have enough blind faith in capitalism for you and keep blaspheming against your dogma.
Nobody said you were morally wrong. What I did say is that you had the same kind of reaction against u/Blacklazor that a religious person does when confronted with questions of faith, because you did. You completely disregarded the account and made zero effort to assess or examine your own position.
I’m sure you wouldn’t want someone to completely disregard your experiences out of hand, correct? Like how you just did to u/BlackLazor.
Just like they did to me, when they said the only thing that drew me to communism was “propaganda” as opposed to my time working under capitalism. The difference is that I discounted their unsubstantiated claims about statistical facts while they discounted my own journey.
According to Quora
According to Quora? Great, so now we have two internet randos saying something.
the wait time was around 10 years
Which is significantly less than what they claimed. So the two internet randos can’t even agree. In that case, which of them should I treat as an absolute authority and which one should I “completely disregard the experiences of out of hand” to use your pretentious language?
Russia Beyond
Finally. Say what you will about Russian state media, but at least it’s more of a source than random people on the internet, which you seem to primarily rely on.
says the wait time was 6-7 years. . . This source also says that Public sector employees (doctors, teachers, etc) had a wait time of 10 or more years.
Which completely contradicts the other user.
Looking at all this, it seems to me what u/Blacklazor said was not incorrect. It may be exaggerated, but the sources say most people lived in cramped apartments with too many people per sqm, were waiting “More than 10 years” to upgrade, and didnt’ get to specify which apartment one was given, or where it was located. So far the account checks out.
What on earth?? “The account checks out” when they were exaggerating somewhere between 2-5 times the actual numbers?
The claim was not, “you had to wait 20-30 years for an upgrade” it was specifically "You weren’t getting any housing in that system. You could enlist in a queue and wait for 20-30 years to get piss poor commie block apartment." That’s completely unsupported by your sources.
What I did say is that you had the same kind of reaction against u/Blacklazor that a religious person does when confronted with questions of faith, because you did. You completely disregarded the account and made zero effort to assess or examine your own position.
It’s also the same reaction a scientist tends to have towards a flat-earther. I don’t know why you think a random internet person saying things is something that should be treated as a reliable source. If someone says, “I walked and walked for miles and the earth seemed really flat the whole way,” am I allowed to “discount their entire experience” or am I supposed to “put effort into reassessing my position” regarding the shape of the earth?
As it turns out, I was 100% right to be skeptical, because your own sources back me up and show that the other person was completely wrong.
The small island country that’s being threatened and economically isolated by the most powerful and militaristic country on earth? Not my first choice.
Why do anti-communists always suggest moving directly into the crosshairs of imperialism?
Interesting thread of comments. I kept upvoting both sides of the comments when good points were made.
I think you lost me with Cuba. Probably would’ve been better to come back with evidence of the 20-30 years claim, or a cited example of some of the systemic dysfunction of life in the USSR instead of jumping to Cuba, arguably the worst current example to pick.
Weird, I actually live in the system I want to change, but I guess my experiences don’t mean anything, and I should just listen to some random internet stranger about it.
Some of us base our opinions on facts and reason. Is there any actual source on “having to wait 20-30 years for a house?” Or am I just expected to accept that claim completely uncritically?
I can’t help but notice how negative claims about communist societies are placed in this special category where expressing any sort of skepticism about them is seen as somehow morally wrong. It reminds me a lot of how questioning the religion I was raised with was seen as wrong, demonstrating a lack of faith. I’m sorry that I don’t have enough blind faith in capitalism for you and keep blaspheming against your dogma.
I’m sure you wouldn’t want someone to completely disregard your experiences out of hand, correct? Like how you just did to u/BlackLazor. I would hope you wouldn’t want someone to do the same to you.
According to Quora the wait time was around 10 years. This person also says a family of four in a very tiny space (less than 20 sqm) was the norm. That account is pretty extensive, with contemporary illustrations to help you understand.
Russia Beyond says the wait time was 6-7 years. Apparently you couldn’t apply for an apartment if your current living situation was any better than a broom closet (must be less than 9 sqm per person.) This source also says that Public sector employees (doctors, teachers, etc) had a wait time of 10 or more years. Apparently one could buy an apartment for 10,000 rubles, while the average salary was 150-200 rubles, so about ten times the monthly salary.
Looking at all this, it seems to me what u/Blacklazor said was not incorrect. It may be exaggerated, but the sources say most people lived in cramped apartments with too many people per sqm, were waiting “More than 10 years” to upgrade, and didnt’ get to specify which apartment one was given, or where it was located. So far the account checks out.
You know, there really does seem to be a lot of info out there about housing in the USSR, if you’re truly serious about wanting to know and not just virtue signaling I’d reccomend doing some googles and actually reading about it. Not being facetious, it’s pretty interesting.
Nobody said you were morally wrong. What I did say is that you had the same kind of reaction against u/Blacklazor that a religious person does when confronted with questions of faith, because you did. You completely disregarded the account and made zero effort to assess or examine your own position.
Just like they did to me, when they said the only thing that drew me to communism was “propaganda” as opposed to my time working under capitalism. The difference is that I discounted their unsubstantiated claims about statistical facts while they discounted my own journey.
According to Quora? Great, so now we have two internet randos saying something.
Which is significantly less than what they claimed. So the two internet randos can’t even agree. In that case, which of them should I treat as an absolute authority and which one should I “completely disregard the experiences of out of hand” to use your pretentious language?
Finally. Say what you will about Russian state media, but at least it’s more of a source than random people on the internet, which you seem to primarily rely on.
Which completely contradicts the other user.
What on earth?? “The account checks out” when they were exaggerating somewhere between 2-5 times the actual numbers?
The claim was not, “you had to wait 20-30 years for an upgrade” it was specifically "You weren’t getting any housing in that system. You could enlist in a queue and wait for 20-30 years to get piss poor commie block apartment." That’s completely unsupported by your sources.
It’s also the same reaction a scientist tends to have towards a flat-earther. I don’t know why you think a random internet person saying things is something that should be treated as a reliable source. If someone says, “I walked and walked for miles and the earth seemed really flat the whole way,” am I allowed to “discount their entire experience” or am I supposed to “put effort into reassessing my position” regarding the shape of the earth?
As it turns out, I was 100% right to be skeptical, because your own sources back me up and show that the other person was completely wrong.
You really should go to Cuba and stay there. Why change current system if you can just travel and live in your dream paradise?
The small island country that’s being threatened and economically isolated by the most powerful and militaristic country on earth? Not my first choice.
Why do anti-communists always suggest moving directly into the crosshairs of imperialism?
Then go to Noth Korea, I don’t care
Interesting thread of comments. I kept upvoting both sides of the comments when good points were made.
I think you lost me with Cuba. Probably would’ve been better to come back with evidence of the 20-30 years claim, or a cited example of some of the systemic dysfunction of life in the USSR instead of jumping to Cuba, arguably the worst current example to pick.
Edit: my bad, you have more responses to others.
I’m tired with arguing with blind dude about colors. I saw shit and lived there, he didn’t.