- cross-posted to:
- privacy@programming.dev
- europe@feddit.org
- cross-posted to:
- privacy@programming.dev
- europe@feddit.org
Chat Control didnt pass - they didnt even vote because they were afraid the result would be embarassing.
And we got told so many times, that EU now wants Chat Control. But it was a big fat lie.
EU is a democracy with different opinions, and when a small group of facists tries to read your chats, it does not represent the EU opinion.
But the whole media got you thinking so. Proving even on Lemmy, you and me are extremly prone to propaganda.
I quoted the article here with the news:
In a major breakthrough for the digital rights movement, the German government has refused to back the EU’s controversial Chat Control regulation yesterday after facing massive public pressure.
The government did not take a position on the proposal.
This blocks the required majority in the EU Council, derailing the plan to pass the surveillance law next week.
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Would the outcome have been the same without people in the media repeatedly bringing this to everyone’s attention? Probably not, because there would have been no public pressure against it, while the shadow groups that want this would have still been lobbying the politicians.
Something bad is going to happen.
Some people advocate to stop that bad thing.
Even more people are holding their clutches that the bad thing might happen.
Because of public pressure, action is undertaken to prevent the bad thing from happening.
Thanks to those efforts, the bad thing is successfully averted.Some random person: that bad thing was never going to happen, look at all those gullible people who were panicking over nothing, we could have just done nothing and the outcome would have been the same.
Also known as the “preparedness paradox”: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Preparedness_paradox
👆 exactly
“Because there was push back and the EU decided to not go forward with a vote and be embarrassed, that means they never really wanted it at all” is one of the dumbest takes I’ve heard in a minute.
he’s confused but he’s got the spirit
Good news. But I’m downvoting that post. OP’s living in reverse crying-wolf land, it seems.
First, Chat Control got further than previous attempts, with a bigger scope than ever. Being worried about that is not the result of propaganda.
Second, a lot of countries where on board, including Germany. Stuff changed after lot of feedback. You can be cynical all you want arguing that “people’s voice don’t matter” and saying there’s no causality there, but people made themselves heard, and thing moved. There’s no telling what would have happened if they didn’t.
The proposal being ultimately shot down (this time!) does not mean, at ALL, that it wasn’t a very dangerous one.
This post reminds me of a bunch of the “y2k scare was a hoax and a waste of money!” stuff from back in the day. With a bunch of people not realizing how much shit was fixed and what massive success it all was.
Second, a lot of countries where on board, including Germany
That means nothing. The governments (which the stances of were being counted) have not that much to say on how the MEPs will vote.
For example, if the Polish government was in favour of this, half of their MEPs would’ve still been against.
You can be cynical all you want arguing that “people’s voice don’t matter” and saying there’s no causality there, but people made themselves heard, and thing moved
I think he’s arguing the exact opposite, mate. He literally said that:
EU is a democracy with different opinions, and when a small group of facists tries to read your chats, it does not represent the EU opinion
There was a lot of panic about the EU being an oppressive “over-government”, trying to subjugate the population like the UK government is doing. That propaganda never made sense to me, but it felt very much like something the pro-russian mob would be spewing because it sows division and chaos, decreasing people’s appreciation of the EU, stoking exit views.
What an idiotic take on the issue.
I think you should never take these things lightly.
It’s better to be too cautious than not cautious enough, especially since there are powerful interest groups that want mass surveillance.
The people don’t want that, of course, but many politicians do, as evidenced by the fact that Palantir is being introduced in Germany, of all places, and completely illegally. This must be prevented, and the population has a role to play in this—for example, with petitions like this one, which already has more than 400,000 signatures: Trump software Palantir: Stop surveillance plans
What politicians want and what the public wants are often totally different things. People vote on a few hot-button issues like immigration, and for stuff that gets less attention, politicians do what they want. So calling attention to chat control likely made a significant difference.
Yeah… no.
Germany switched to opposed partially because people knew about it and contacted their representatives.
They contacted their representatives because they heard about it… through the media.
I contacted my representatives in Spain and they gave two fucks about it, they still positioned as “in favour”.
I contacted
myrepresentativesThese people clearly don’t represent you.
yeah im in Ireland, anything positoned to be about about protecting kids from sexual predators will pass here.
EU is a democracy with different opinions, and when a small group of facists tries to read your chats, it does not represent the EU opinion.
But the whole media got you thinking so. Proving even on Lemmy, you and me are extremly prone to propaganda.
This is what the EU democracy opinion was as of July 2024 BTW, before the “media got to you”:
That image is the thumbnail for OP’s link LOL
Let’s not protest terrible ideas to not embarrass facists (who may or may not be part of your/our government) or what’s supposed to be the message here?
The message here is: “don’t believe when people start screaming that the EU is a fascist organisation that wants to subjugate the population”.
Because there was A LOT of that online when Chat Control reared its head.
The difference between a fascist government and a democratic government can be distressingly thin, something we should all be aware of by now.
In this case, the EU has just proven it is currently on the right side of that divide. When extremely unpopular and authoritarian ideas were considered, the public felt able to voice their disapproval and the government felt they had to listen. That is a crucial step. Good for you all.
Sadly it likely will continue to require major work to keep the public on guard against future attempts like this one, but that’s life.
As a swede, I’m so embarrassed that my country supports this shit.
Proving even on Lemmy, you and me are extremly prone to propaganda.
What? LOL Who do you think is pushing said “propaganda” to make people fear Chat Control unnecessarily?
And we got told so many times, that EU now wants Chat Control. But it was a big fat lie.
It was demonstrably not a lie. There were so many regions in support of it that it was dangerously close to passing.
I’m thinking this post is the propaganda. Really really lazy propaganda.
Don’t worry, it’ll be back again in a few months with a new coat of paint.
There were so many regions in support of it that it was dangerously close to passing.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but - it wasn’t “close to passing”, it was “close to being passed on as a proposal for a law”, requiring then a formal vote, no?
So, even if Germany retained its support and the motion went forward, it could still get smashed during the vote.
I’m thinking this post is the propaganda. Really really lazy propaganda.
I think you’re misreading it and badly.
I read it as: “don’t believe those who panicked that the EU is a fascist dictatorship that wants to subjugate the population, because it’s still a democracy where the people have the power, as proven by Chat Control being thrown in the bin yet again”.
it wasn’t “close to passing”, it was “close to being passed on as a proposal for a law”, requiring then a formal vote, no?
It’s the same thing. Why would a country show support for the legislation and then vote against it later?
I read it as: "don’t believe those who panicke
This is such a charitable reading that it’s probably fair to assume this is OPs alt account.
It’s the same thing.
It absolutely is not. I don’t know, maybe you’re more familiar with the US federal system (pre-Trump, because that’s a different can of worms)? If so: imagine if the president (in this case having no ability to issue executive orders, mind you) says “we should do X”. That’s all well and good, but the X must still go through the Senate and Congress, where it might fail.
Why would a country show support for the legislation and then vote against it later?
Well, because “a country” is not a singular hive-mind, is it? The government says “yes”, but their own Parliament might say “no”.
Governments have no say in what goes on in the EU Commission or Parliament. I mean, sure, most of the time the MEPs coming out of the government-aligned parties will have similar votes, but the EU elections aren’t in-step with most countries’ elections, so it’s never a 1:1 translation. And even then, many MEPs will just vote on their own.
This is such a charitable reading that it’s probably fair to assume this is OPs alt account.
Holy fuck, watch out when opening the fridge, mate, OP might jump out of it!
It was demonstrably not a lie. There were so many regions in support of it that it was dangerously close to passing.
It really wasn’t. It couldn’t have been close to passing without a vote even taking place. The vote was scheduled for October 14th. However, since countries representing more than 35% of the EU population have declared their opposition to this proposal, it has been canceled.
A lot of countries have indeed declared support, though this is completely separate from the vote. There, it’d require a qualified majority (55% of member states in favor, or countries representing 65% of the EU population in favor). Looking at MEPs’ public statements, it’s unlikely that the vote would have passed.
Nonetheless, it remains troubling that they keep trying to force this proposal through. We have to push back every single time, but they only need it to pass once. Who knows what the future may hold.
It couldn’t have been close to passing without a vote even taking place.
Huh? Do countries voicing their approval or disapproval not count as a “vote”?
countries representing more than 35% of the EU population have declared their opposition
That’s not even half…
A lot of countries have indeed declared support, though this is completely separate from the vote.
That’s because, as you mentioned earlier, the vote never happened.
There, it’d require a qualified majority (55% of member states in favor, or countries representing 65% of the EU population in favor)
Which, according to your own numbers, they already had.
Huh? Do countries voicing their approval or disapproval not count as a “vote”?
No. The stances of countries are the [leaked] stances of their respective governments. Which may or may not reflect the views of the country’s MEPs. You can read more here: Fight Chat Control
That’s not even half…
True, and that’s indeed very concerning. However, it should be noted that this is not how many countries are against this proposal, but how many countries oppose it enough to reject it before voting. Many countries currently ‘undecided’ are likely to vote against the proposal in the end (if a vote took place). Likewise, some of them could vote in favor.
Which, according to your own numbers, they already had.
Not at all. I mentioned that, with Germany changing their stance to against, we had over 35% of the EU population against. Which means in favor and undecided both had less than 65% together. Right now I can’t count the populations, but there’s 12 countries in favor, 9 against and 6 undecided. This by no means gives the countries in favor a qualified majority. Unless at least half of undecided (3 countries) fully voted in favor. Which is fairly unlikely.
Additionally, as I mentioned above, these numbers are for the member states’ governments, not their MEPs. Usually MEPs are more pro-people, but of course, it depends on the country and its current government.
Are you mad that people got mad? Anger is not a subtle political instrument, a win is a win.
I believe it should be all over the media to ensure that it never passes. Democracy dies in darkness. Name and shame those who supported it.
Proving even on Lemmy, you and me are extremly prone to propaganda.
Uuuuh… This place is a breeding ground of heavily biased propaganda. Just look at your feed, it’s all news articles reinforcing a side of things. It’s got its fair share of users that don’t look at things from a broad perspective and most get mad when they perceive their opinion is being challenged, even when it’s not. That’s why it’s riddled with posts that aren’t for interest; they’re rooted in agenda that is to either push narrative or reinforce ego.
And if your filter lists aren’t full of users, communities, and instances, it’s very plausible your mind my be one that’s easily duped, because the shits got to be one of the most obvious places on the internet to spot it. Part of the Lemmy experience is maintaining and customising the feed.
Lemmy is a perfect example of the often unspoken side of propaganda: when you’re surrounded by people who all seem to share the same opinion, you’re far less likely to speak up if you disagree. In extreme cases, this leads to situations where the majority actually disagrees but stays silent, falsely assuming they’re in the minority. That’s how a vocal minority ends up controlling the silent majority - and it’s exactly why authoritarian governments try to silence the media. This is why freedom of speech and a free press are so important, and why silencing dissenting voices, even with good intentions, ends up mimicking the tactics of authoritarian regimes.
