According to the most recent report (2024), people in China have overwhelmingly positive views of their political system. 92% of people say that democracy is important to them, 79% say that their country is democratic, 91% say that the government serves the interests of most people (rather than a small group), and 85% say all people have equal rights before the law. Furthermore, China outperforms the US and most European countries on these indicators – in fact, it has some of the strongest results in the world. The figure below compares China’s results to those from the US, France and Britain. These results may help explain the high levels of satisfaction with government reported by the Ash Center.
Thanks for the graph! Happy to see that. I’m very willing to investigate my perception of China. What China-critical sources do you consider credible? What arguments would convince you that China is a bad place?
My personal experiences are from the scientific community, where those who come from China are extremely critical of it, in a great part due to extreme surveillance, low individual freedom and low respect for human rights. But that’s just anecdotal.
I consider those credible sources, but I’d be happy to reconsider that if you have any good reasons to doubt them.
My argument is that while possibly lots of people in China think it’s a good place and are happy with the overall direction, lots of other people in China are being treated with a terrifying brutality that is impossible to justify if you believe in the values of universal human welfare and dignity.
These approval rates are generally positive across the board. There’s no slavery of Uyghurs in China, no mass sterilizations or executions. The issue with your sources is that, generally, they aren’t credible. Xinjiang in particular does have high approval rates, and while there was a response from the state to western-backed extremists, this has died down and the program has been seen as a success. See Qiao Collective’s Xinjiang Resource Guide.
Drepung monastery was one of the biggest landowners in the world, with its 185 manors, 25,000 serfs, 300 great pastures, and 16,000 herdsmen. The wealth of the monasteries rested in the hands of small numbers of high-ranking lamas. Most ordinary monks lived modestly and had no direct access to great wealth. The Dalai Lama himself “lived richly in the 1000-room, 14-story Potala Palace.” [12]
Secular leaders also did well. A notable example was the commander-in-chief of the Tibetan army, a member of the Dalai Lama’s lay Cabinet, who owned 4,000 square kilometers of land and 3,500 serfs. [13] Old Tibet has been misrepresented by some Western admirers as “a nation that required no police force because its people voluntarily observed the laws of karma.” [14] In fact it had a professional army, albeit a small one, that served mainly as a gendarmerie for the landlords to keep order, protect their property, and hunt down runaway serfs.
Young Tibetan boys were regularly taken from their peasant families and brought into the monasteries to be trained as monks. Once there, they were bonded for life. Tashì-Tsering, a monk, reports that it was common for peasant children to be sexually mistreated in the monasteries. He himself was a victim of repeatedremoved, beginning at age nine. [15] The monastic estates also conscripted children for lifelong servitude as domestics, dance performers, and soldiers.
In old Tibet there were small numbers of farmers who subsisted as a kind of free peasantry, and perhaps an additional 10,000 people who composed the “middle-class” families of merchants, shopkeepers, and small traders. Thousands of others were beggars. There also were slaves, usually domestic servants, who owned nothing. Their offspring were born into slavery. [16] The majority of the rural population were serfs. Treated little better than slaves, the serfs went without schooling or medical care. They were under a lifetime bond to work the lord’s land — or the monastery’s land — without pay, to repair the lord’s houses, transport his crops, and collect his firewood. They were also expected to provide carrying animals and transportation on demand. [17] Their masters told them what crops to grow and what animals to raise. They could not get married without the consent of their lord or lama. And they might easily be separated from their families should their owners lease them out to work in a distant location. [18]
As in a free labor system and unlike slavery, the overlords had no responsibility for the serf’s maintenance and no direct interest in his or her survival as an expensive piece of property. The serfs had to support themselves. Yet as in a slave system, they were bound to their masters, guaranteeing a fixed and permanent workforce that could neither organize nor strike nor freely depart as might laborers in a market context. The overlords had the best of both worlds.
One 22-year old woman, herself a runaway serf, reports: “Pretty serf girls were usually taken by the owner as house servants and used as he wished”; they “were just slaves without rights.” [19] Serfs needed permission to go anywhere. Landowners had legal authority to capture those who tried to flee. One 24-year old runaway welcomed the Chinese intervention as a “liberation.” He testified that under serfdom he was subjected to incessant toil, hunger, and cold. After his third failed escape, he was merciless beaten by the landlord’s men until blood poured from his nose and mouth. They then poured alcohol and caustic soda on his wounds to increase the pain, he claimed. [20]
The serfs were taxed upon getting married, taxed for the birth of each child and for every death in the family. They were taxed for planting a tree in their yard and for keeping animals. They were taxed for religious festivals and for public dancing and drumming, for being sent to prison and upon being released. Those who could not find work were taxed for being unemployed, and if they traveled to another village in search of work, they paid a passage tax. When people could not pay, the monasteries lent them money at 20 to 50 percent interest. Some debts were handed down from father to son to grandson. Debtors who could not meet their obligations risked being cast into slavery. [21]
The theocracy’s religious teachings buttressed its class order. The poor and afflicted were taught that they had brought their troubles upon themselves because of their wicked ways in previous lives. Hence they had to accept the misery of their present existence as a karmic atonement and in anticipation that their lot would improve in their next lifetime. The rich and powerful treated their good fortune as a reward for, and tangible evidence of, virtue in past and present lives.
Selection two, shorter: (CW sexual violence and mutilation)
The Tibetan serfs were something more than superstitious victims, blind to their own oppression. As we have seen, some ran away; others openly resisted, sometimes suffering dire consequences. In feudal Tibet, torture and mutilation — including eye gouging, the pulling out of tongues, hamstringing, and amputation — were favored punishments inflicted upon thieves, and runaway or resistant serfs. [22]
Journeying through Tibet in the 1960s, Stuart and Roma Gelder interviewed a former serf, Tsereh Wang Tuei, who had stolen two sheep belonging to a monastery. For this he had both his eyes gouged out and his hand mutilated beyond use. He explains that he no longer is a Buddhist: “When a holy lama told them to blind me I thought there was no good in religion.” [23] Since it was against Buddhist teachings to take human life, some offenders were severely lashed and then “left to God” in the freezing night to die. “The parallels between Tibet and medieval Europe are striking,” concludes Tom Grunfeld in his book on Tibet. [24]
In 1959, Anna Louise Strong visited an exhibition of torture equipment that had been used by the Tibetan overlords. There were handcuffs of all sizes, including small ones for children, and instruments for cutting off noses and ears, gouging out eyes, breaking off hands, and hamstringing legs. There were hot brands, whips, and special implements for disemboweling. The exhibition presented photographs and testimonies of victims who had been blinded or crippled or suffered amputations for thievery. There was the shepherd whose master owed him a reimbursement in yuan and wheat but refused to pay. So he took one of the master’s cows; for this he had his hands severed. Another herdsman, who opposed having his wife taken from him by his lord, had his hands broken off. There were pictures of Communist activists with noses and upper lips cut off, and a woman who wasremovedd and then had her nose sliced away. [25]
Earlier visitors to Tibet commented on the theocratic despotism. In 1895, an Englishman, Dr. A. L. Waddell, wrote that the populace was under the “intolerable tyranny of monks” and the devil superstitions they had fashioned to terrorize the people. In 1904 Perceval Landon described the Dalai Lama’s rule as “an engine of oppression.” At about that time, another English traveler, Captain W. F. T. O’Connor, observed that “the great landowners and the priests… exercise each in their own dominion a despotic power from which there is no appeal,” while the people are “oppressed by the most monstrous growth of monasticism and priest-craft.” Tibetan rulers “invented degrading legends and stimulated a spirit of superstition” among the common people. In 1937, another visitor, Spencer Chapman, wrote, “The Lamaist monk does not spend his time in ministering to the people or educating them. […] The beggar beside the road is nothing to the monk. Knowledge is the jealously guarded prerogative of the monasteries and is used to increase their influence and wealth.” [26] As much as we might wish otherwise, feudal theocratic Tibet was a far cry from the romanticized Shangri-La so enthusiastically nurtured by Buddhism’s western proselytes.
Essentially, you only seem to trust organizations that have direct ties to western state department propagandists. Your sources on Xinjiang all lead back to Adrian Zenz, orgs like Human Rights Watch are just western government mouthpieces, etc. The UN report on Xinjiang is the least bad source on it from the west, though China’s response should also be read.
My argument is that while possibly lots of people in China think it’s a good place and are happy with the overall direction, lots of other people in China are being treated with a terrifying brutality that is impossible to justify if you believe in the values of universal human welfare and dignity.
My argument is that you essentially have immersed yourself in a Cold War style understanding of China that doesn’t reflect reality. China isn’t perfect, it has a long way to go, but it’s come a lot farther than any other country and is still rapidly improving with no signs of stopping.
Thanks again. I’d like to restate my question: which China-critical sources do you consider credible? Any western ones? Is there any way I could present this argument to make you change your mind?
I’m having a hard time accepting that all western sources are propaganda. I’ve never had reason to doubt the sources I cited before, such as Amnesty International, in other cases they’ve been accurate. Are they only misleading on China?
The free media of my country, Denmark, reports the same facts based on their investigations, across the political spectrum and despite angering our government, which has close economic ties to China. How does that fit with these organizations and this media being government mouthpieces?
The west, Denmark included, has interest in undermining the current government of China because it prevents the free movement of capital. As such, even though the west does a ton of business with China, it seeks to undermine its government and replace it with a liberal, capitalist-friendly gov. The links I gave you were all western, actually, I just heavily distrust mass media’s reporting on geopolitical adversaries.
Surveillance isn’t outside the norm for western countries, and is focused more heavily on businesses than on random civilians. As for censorship, it’s mostly a tool to suppress capitalists from using media to undermine the socialist system. Overall, people in the PRC broadly support their system and believe it to be constantly improving, so that’s what truly matters most.
I mean, China is bad. At least according to the Chinese.
Which ones?
Thanks for the graph! Happy to see that. I’m very willing to investigate my perception of China. What China-critical sources do you consider credible? What arguments would convince you that China is a bad place?
My personal experiences are from the scientific community, where those who come from China are extremely critical of it, in a great part due to extreme surveillance, low individual freedom and low respect for human rights. But that’s just anecdotal.
My immediate (better sourced) concerns would be the Uyghurs, who don’t seem to enjoy being Chinese , the five million people working under modern slavery, the people of occupied Tibet, and generally anyone who doesn’t speak, dress or behave the way the state thinks they should.
I consider those credible sources, but I’d be happy to reconsider that if you have any good reasons to doubt them.
My argument is that while possibly lots of people in China think it’s a good place and are happy with the overall direction, lots of other people in China are being treated with a terrifying brutality that is impossible to justify if you believe in the values of universal human welfare and dignity.
These approval rates are generally positive across the board. There’s no slavery of Uyghurs in China, no mass sterilizations or executions. The issue with your sources is that, generally, they aren’t credible. Xinjiang in particular does have high approval rates, and while there was a response from the state to western-backed extremists, this has died down and the program has been seen as a success. See Qiao Collective’s Xinjiang Resource Guide.
As for Tibet, read Friendly Feudalism: The Tibet Myth. Here’s 2 excerpts:
Selection two, shorter: (CW sexual violence and mutilation)
Essentially, you only seem to trust organizations that have direct ties to western state department propagandists. Your sources on Xinjiang all lead back to Adrian Zenz, orgs like Human Rights Watch are just western government mouthpieces, etc. The UN report on Xinjiang is the least bad source on it from the west, though China’s response should also be read.
My argument is that you essentially have immersed yourself in a Cold War style understanding of China that doesn’t reflect reality. China isn’t perfect, it has a long way to go, but it’s come a lot farther than any other country and is still rapidly improving with no signs of stopping.
Thanks again. I’d like to restate my question: which China-critical sources do you consider credible? Any western ones? Is there any way I could present this argument to make you change your mind?
I’m having a hard time accepting that all western sources are propaganda. I’ve never had reason to doubt the sources I cited before, such as Amnesty International, in other cases they’ve been accurate. Are they only misleading on China?
The free media of my country, Denmark, reports the same facts based on their investigations, across the political spectrum and despite angering our government, which has close economic ties to China. How does that fit with these organizations and this media being government mouthpieces?
The west, Denmark included, has interest in undermining the current government of China because it prevents the free movement of capital. As such, even though the west does a ton of business with China, it seeks to undermine its government and replace it with a liberal, capitalist-friendly gov. The links I gave you were all western, actually, I just heavily distrust mass media’s reporting on geopolitical adversaries.
[don’t laugh]
I hate china because of the goverment surveillance and censorship.
Surveillance isn’t outside the norm for western countries, and is focused more heavily on businesses than on random civilians. As for censorship, it’s mostly a tool to suppress capitalists from using media to undermine the socialist system. Overall, people in the PRC broadly support their system and believe it to be constantly improving, so that’s what truly matters most.