I am sure this article has been shared before, however I wanted to have a look at this topic.
The articles short summary is this:
All 25 car brands we researched earned our *Privacy Not Included warning label – making cars the worst category of products that we have ever reviewed
I am currently driving a 2014 Ford Fiesta which just has a radio with a CD player and Bluetooth. I do not need more than that in a car.
The reason I am looking at all is that that the Fiesta does not belong to me and the friend owning it will be moving out in a bit, so I kinda need another one.
There seems to be one brand that is not as bad as the other ones (but still bad): Renault; mozilla’s review…
Maybe I will have a look at their cars.
What do you guys think? Stick to older used cars and not use an EV or look at which of the manufacturers have the least bad privacy policy?
My French car asks me at startup if I allow it to send my data. The default settings if I don’t answer by 10 seconds is the last one, i.e. “no than you”. Thank you EU.
And all of a sudden data roaming costs isn’t an issue anymore ;) Who pays the mobile subscription? Or do car manufacturers pay the telco’s with a part of the data gathered …
Yes, the OEMs pay for it. They get sims that are prepaid for like 10 years.
Which shows that wholesale, data subcriptions are probably a few dollars a year.
Depends entirely on the amount of data and the bandwidth.
Phoning home every hour is a couple of KB at most and doesn’t matter how long it takes.
Streaming videos on the other hand, a lot more and you don’t want to be waiting.
Makes me wonder if there’s an easy way to get the car to start using a lot more bandwidth. Make the deal not worth it for the carriers anymore. Something that could be distributed for use on many cars, maybe used to give free internet to a wifi mesh in the vicinity of any of those cars.
well I don’t know what they collect and send but there was an article the other day about a fucking Bosch washsher sending 3.6 Gb of data a DAY
https://www.newsweek.com/homeowner-baffled-washing-machine-uses-3-6gb-internet-1862675
Since it’s in your car can you just use it to do what you want?
Like. I don’t drive. But if I did I’m yanking that SIM card out.
There have to be people hacking these, right?
Since it’s in your car can you just use it to do what you want?
Yes. There is no follow-up. It is your car. End of story.
It’s possible, as long as its not an eSim or soldered to the PCB.
Probably e-sim or heavily embedded in critical systems.
Makes sense.
Fucking horse shit.
While I’m glad I don’t drive the idea of paying $60,000 for something that does whatever the fuck it wants without my say so makes me frothing mad.
I feel the same. But it goes for so much. My wife just bought a new phone and i’m angry for hours already. All that shit you need to remove and turn off. All the configurations “help” that starts and you must walk through that turns it all back on again and reinstalls bloat. And god damnit so many shit we had turned off on the old phone shows up on the new one. All privacy settings feel like placebo toggles. I’m done with “smart” devices.
I have an older Nissan Leaf in Australia. While I’m sure the car is trying to send telemetry, it only has a 3G modem, and the 3G network has been switched off for all of Australia.
If you have a newer car, it may be possible to remove the telematics fuse and ignore the related DTC.
I bet the authorities can still pick up the telemetry with satellites. Of course, they can also just see the car.
The 3G transmitter is not able to send signals to satellites.
It’s definitely designed to be able to send signals to satellites, and there are satellites designed to pick up signals from devices that aren’t designed to reach them.
But, they can also just see where your car is going visually, and get any audio/video from inside with your phone that connects directly to cell towers, so you might be right that no satellite is actually ever spying on your car’s 3G modem.
It’s definitely designed to be able to send signals to satellites
Do you have any source for that? Not that I don’t believe you but I can’t find anything on this
The sources are just people who know saying it, like me. The designers wouldn’t publicly admit it or anything.
Cell phone range is impacted by ground obstruction, the curvature of the earth itself getting in the way, atmospheric effects
The closest satellites are about 160km up, where a 3G transmitter can reach when it’s looking straight up with no Earth and less air in the way
The companies that designed the 3G standard and manufactured some of the phones also do military contracts for stuff like the radios in spy satellites, they knew what they were doing
It also stands out as intentional because making the range go beyond the curvature of the earth is just crippling infrastructure, wasting battery and putting millions of people in danger (can’t call 911 with a dead phone)
Lower-power devices with mesh networking would have made more sense with the powerful processors and high usage phones were getting by the middle of the 3G era, but the “cellular” design is much more convenient to monitor
Or just remove the antenna. Bonus points it might even burn itself out!
Bike
whenever possible, yes… unfortunately, it is not always possible
Your phone is tracking your every move.
Your cell provider is tracking many of your moves by seeing what cell towers you are talking to.
Your phone is only tracking your every move if appropriate spyware is installed.
Maybe yours is, but ours aren’t.
Older cars is the key, something without electronic/network based maintenance systems
You will spend more maintaining those older cars than buying a newish used car. Depending on what age of course, but things wear out and eventually they become hard/expensive to fix.
the maintenance systems have been electronic based forever now though, haven’t they?
And I mean there comes the time when older just means cars from 2020… And I admit that I am not getting a car for which I’d have to be a mechanic to live with it…
None of this has anything to do with the car’s powertrain. Regular internal combustion engine cars are just as bad as EVs in this regard.
The OP would rather an EV which tend to be newer. ICE you get a lot more years to pick from, some of which are pretty simple/low tech.
ICE you get a lot more years to pick from, some of which are pretty simple/low tech.
I have a couple vehicles that fall into this category. 1980 Mercedes 240D, and a 1980 Honda XR500. Dead simple vehicles. The Benz will happily continue running with zero battery. The XR only requires a whole 3 wires to run, and since it’s kickstarted, no battery is required at all.
Ive owned a lot of old diesel Mercedes. Yes, it will run forever but you have to adjust the valves and check the chain stretch annually and no one will do this for you so you will be stained black from diesel engine oil. All the accessories will stop working including the electric windows, except the oil pressure gauge and the speedometer which doesn’t matter in a 240 anyway. The drivers seat will lean outboard and the ignition cylinder will break and leave your key stuck in ACC. The subframe bushings will go and you’ll be waggling your tail at everyone behind, you hot little diesel tart.
Ive owned a lot of old diesel Mercedes.
You. I like you. Know any good parts sources besides Pelican?
Yes, it will run forever but you have to adjust the valves and check the chain stretch annually and no one will do this for you so you will be stained black from diesel engine oil.
I’m aware. It has nearly 500k miles on the odo already. Valve adjustments are easy. Though I’m curious - does the engine need to come out to change the chain if it’s too stretched? There’s plenty of room…
All the accessories will stop working including the electric windows, except the oil pressure gauge and the speedometer which doesn’t matter in a 240 anyway.
Mine is a base model with crank windows and manual climate controls. The door locks barely work as it is; I’ll be replacing them anyway though.
The oil pressure gauge is also leaking a bit. Any tips on an electric replacement? Or should I just fix what’s in there?
Oh! Believe it or not, the AC still works. Barely. But it works.
The drivers seat will lean outboard
Too late.
and the ignition cylinder will break and leave your key stuck in ACC.
That’s good to know. What should I look for before this happens?
The subframe bushings will go and you’ll be waggling your tail at everyone behind, you hot little diesel tart.
This one seems to drive quite nice for its age and miles. Though we shall see how it does
AC in a 240 huh…you have to block off time in Outlook for onramps.
I still have my gasser W116 (also with crank windows lol) but havent ordered parts in forever. I think I used to use Peachparts sometimes? And EBay of course.
The locks and AC are probably related. Even the manual AC has vacuum pods I think. Buy a Mityvac and start chasing vacuum leaks. Probably cracked runner connectors, but if your trans shifts 1-2 hard too there’s a bigger leak.
Timing chain can be done in the car. Get the manual on CD, shows you everything.
Keep mechanical oil gauge, electric ones are junk. Bet you anything the flare fitting on the back is just loose. Screw it down, or replace the gauge with another one.
You’ll probably get a keybhang or two resolved by wiggling before your key gets stuck. Keep a light key chain and I think a little graphite lube in the lock helps, but you can preemptively just replace it with a new cylinder from Mercedes, keyed to your code. Or you used to be able to. At any rate a hung key is bad juju.
Right on, thanks!
The locks and AC are probably related. Even the manual AC has vacuum pods I think. Buy a Mityvac and start chasing vacuum leaks.
Good to know. Already got a mityvac specifically for this car. The system definitely has a few leaks, I can only get maybe two lock cycles in before it’s done for (with the locks that still work, anyway)
Probably cracked runner connectors, but if your trans shifts 1-2 hard too there’s a bigger leak.
Forgot to mention - it’s a manual transmission 😅
Oh lucky you, those are awesome.
His current car is 11 years old and you can easily find 11-years old EVs.
You’re saying OP might want to trade his 11 year old car for a 12 year old ICE.
Nobody said it does. OP said “buy an old car without all of this shit even though it won’t be electric or suck it up”
There is a tiny number of cars available (mainly certain years of Nissan Leaf afaik) from right when batteries were getting kinda good but this stuff wasn’t all added yet
I was lucky enough to buy new in 2017, just before all the ridiculous privacy violations hit the fast lane
By the time this car is done for, I will have no option available that is not a privacy violation on wheels… jailbreaking/hacking will be my #1 purchase criteria of whatever my next car will be
I don’t own a car and am not a fan of most modern “features”, but, I must say, I’m quite fond of adaptive cruise control. Setting a follow distance and just cruising for long drives is far better than pumping the brakes every 5 minutes for folks mucking up passing lanes or trucks attempting to overtake on lane-limited roadways. I bet if everyone used it, traffic snakes wouldn’t be such a nuisance.
I’d rather never own a car, but if I needed one, I’d be hard pressed to sacrifice privacy for that sweet adaptive cruise. Of course, network connectivity isn’t required, so perhaps there will eventually be options.
In case you actually ever need a car and want ACC:
Adaptive cruise became available in the 1998 Mercedes-Benz S-Class and in the early to mid 2000s expanded to executive cars of different marques and then later on, towards smaller/cheaper cars.
There absolutely are cars you can get that have adaptive cruise, that don’t have any network connectivity beyond the built-in cellphone (because they used to do that) or Bluetooth to connect your phone.
Thanks man. I figured there was probably a cross-section of a few cars that fit the bill. I would wonder about and need to confirm functionality. When I rent, I often receive Corollas, and I do like Toyota’s implementation. The one’s I’ve driven brake gracefully on lane switches and in finding the follow distance. I’ve yet to hit a situation, even amongst torn up construction areas, where the assists get janky.
Anecdotally, I’ve heard from others, with older cars, who won’t use the ACC because of perceived jank.
It definitely differs between implementations. I hear Distronic Plus on a W212 Mercedes (so 2009-2016 E-Class) was fairly good for its era, with smooth braking, but I’m biased because pre-touchscreen-hell Mercedes cars are something I have a soft spot for (so pretty much anything made before this decade, really - they kept touchscreens out of the equation for longer than Audi at least). On W211s you could get regular Distronic, which didn’t come to a complete stop, it was only meant for highway use. Also all these systems were optional back then, so you can’t buy cars blindly. Hell, I bought a 2019 C-Class being pretty sure it had ACC and it… did not.
I unfortunately can’t give any advice on Japanese cars, I’ve only owned a Subaru. The ACC in that was a bit janky, though it never hit anyone so it definitely worked. Most of the time. It complained about lack of sight fairly often, since it was a camera based system unlike the radar or lidar systems most seem to use.
It’s a band-aid measure that makes cars behave more like buses, trains, or any other form of transit that takes the mental strain off of the individual. Yet it still uses cars, so we all still get those sweet sweet carbon emissions and ridiculously outsized infrastructure degradation. It’s a step in the right direction but we’re still on the wrong path.
I fully agree with that. Well designed public transport, human-powered local transit (bikes!), and more densely packed infrastructure for human populations are the way to go with respect to the global predicament. This is a big part of the reason I refuse to own a car. But, I can appreciate some features added to the old ways, while gritting my teeth.
Detroit already knows where all your dogging spots are. Who did you think you were meeting there?
FWIW I did both a GDPR request and a Lexus Nexus data request on both of my Mercedes and they had zero info on me. My buddy did the same and same results. I’m not sure they are collecting any data even though they say they may, or they’re actually honoring the opt out setting. Either way I’m not worried about my Mercedes cars. My brother requested his data and his Toyota and Lexus had a LOT of info on him.
or they’re actually honoring the opt out setting
yeah right. “Hey! He used opt-out, don’t tell him shit on what we know”. Also out-out should be illegal. All should be opt-in
I don’t disagree, but the results are the results. So for whatever reason, they don’t have my information. Of course I’d prefer a traditional approach to data collection from a car (none).
We need more development of open source cars
I’d love this, but I doubt that it is ever going to happen. Open-Source-Hardware is not as widely spread as open source software which is also still a niche. The big difference is that you can easily develop OSS on your own in your free time, but with hardware its a lot more difficult. And then think of all the parts necessary to build a car and then again all the certifications to actually get it on the street and after that the question of liability in case of accidents…
The need is an OSS ecu that drops in present cars.
Speeduino is a thing. Not exactly drop-in, but it’s a start.
I think the real obstacle isn’t even the regulations but the safety systems. The various US DMVs can comprehend things like scratch-built or kit cars, but the level of engineering to make a thing that can even sometimes decelerate a person from like 60 to 0 without killing them more with exploding airbags is several levels above that required to make a thing with wheels that drives forward.
So you can build and probably even drive a car from plans you got off Github, but if you crash it it will kill you.
I’d be happy to have a car that goes max 50 kph
All it takes is one company to do open hardware. Then all the other companies will use it, because its cheaper for them without having to do the initial r&d.
If it’s licensed properly, then all subsequent customizations by these other companies will get shared, so the project just gets better and better with time.
I love the idea but the cynic in me sees the Mountains of hurdles, starting with the gigantic piles of money you need for development and certification.
Non profits and governments fund open source development all the time. We just need one country to not be selfish one time, and everyone will benefit.
Interesting point you bring up.
The inner workings and overall principles of the internal combustion engine are well-documented. There are also open-source engine controllers - Speeduino comes to mind. Electric motors and their controllers are also well-documented.
People build kit cars all the time, enough that many U.S. states actually have specific standards that a kit car must meet in order to be road legal; hilariously, these standards are often far lower than vehicles manufactured by an OEM.
We don’t need a foss ice to have open source cars. Even setting ice aside, as long as the BOM includes easy to find, off the shelf components, its still a Foss project
You mean… Trains?..
Fun fact, French auto brands are defacto banned in the US. You can’t insure them.
Why not?
Freedom, probably.
No idea on the technical reason, but it’s complicated. There’s a lot of foreign brands that are banned here.
To answer any questions related to vehicle legislation in the US, look no further than the “Big Three”: GM, Ford, and Chrysler/AMC/DaimlerChrysler/FCA/Stellantis.
These three dipshits bitch and moan incessantly to daddy government any time they have to contend with actual competition. Look at Japanese kei trucks for the most recent example. Some states are even outright revoking their registrations despite being 100% legally imported, inspected, insured, and licensed. The excuse is “they are unsafe”, meanwhile states will happily register Bubba’s '32 Ford with a SBC, no mufflers, no cats, no seatbelts, headlight output equivalent to 3 candles, a single brake light, and no actual structure besides “pretty metal”. But kei trucks bad. Because safety.
🙄
I don’t think we are missing much, I haven’t heard anything but horror stories about french car reliability. This is purely from German acquaintances I have as well as some mechanic opinions I have been given.
Renaults have some of the best EVs on the current market though.
I believe it, my disgusting little ICE brain doesn’t think of EV when I think car quite yet 😅 I hope there are good options available for the market here so that can change. In the meantime I might buy an old Nissan Leaf and mod the heck out of it to have better range and longevity, I don’t know yet.
To be fair, the EVs are kinda brand new for them, so it may be different; we won’t know for sure though because they’re only a few years old at this point
I have a 2014 Chevy volt. Not a full EV, but used ones are affordable and the 3g cell modem no longer works.
We get 30-38 miles per charge depending on the outside temperature which covers most of our day to day driving. It will charge from a regular wall outlet (120v at 8 amps) in 12 hours. The ICE engine gets an oil change every 2 years since it gets rarely used.
How is the old Zoe there? It even asks for consent for maps data.
