As expected this made libs here seething. Spectre haunts again lmao.
Provided you say that russia / china are in fact not communist, what would be a real existing (or past) communist country in which a large amount of people have lived?
Russia is no longer guided by Communist leadership, but both the PRC and former USSR are examples of countries led by Communists, with Socialist systems. Same with Cuba, the DPRK, Vietnam, Laos, and more.
Cuba seems to be a great country, people there most definitely have great lives. Freedom_of_the_press_in_Cuba Elections in cuba
Laos has been governed by the Lao People’s Revolutionary Party, under which non-governmental organisations have routinely characterised the country’s human rights record as poor, citing repeated abuses such as torture, restrictions on civil liberties and persecution of minorities.
DPRK = north korea
Sure are great countries you listed there…
For the record i dont want to doubt that marxism would be a nice experience but the lack of non ass, real countries makes me do so
If its so much better there how come you dont live there?
Linking a bunch of Wikipedia pages isn’t really a point, especially with propaganda outlets like HRW and Amnesty International featured prominently as sources. A country being Socialist doesn’t mean it’s a perfect wonderland, just that public ownership is the principle aspect of its economy.
By and large, though, these countries do much better than Capitalist peer countries, with higher life expectancies, literacy rates, lower poverty rates, and more. Further, they are usually the targets of large sanctions and embargoes, and subject to constant western propagandizing and myth making.
If you have a specific thing you’re curious about, we can go in depth and try to separate fact from fiction, or contextualize them. If not, and you’re just going to call countries “ass” because they protect their economies from US financial Capital, then there’s not much to discuss.
And I’d be down to live in China for a few years, or Vietnam, for sure. Wouldn’t want to move away from my family for the long run though.
As always, incredible job and fantastic research, comrade. That was a fascinating read (and sickening, too).
Ah yes my favourite, all other information is propaganda.
I didn’t say all, I listed a couple sources I know are. You didn’t make any point.
Honest question: where does the 1,6 billion figure come from?
Every death by Dutch capitalism (death from the slave trade, Colonialism/Colonial wars (Oceania, Africa, …), …)
plus
Every death by British empire’s capitalism (Irish genocide, Bengal famine, Slave trade, Colonialism/Colonial wars (India, Africa, North America, South east Asia, Oceania, Middle east, …) , Opium wars, Massacres against independence movements (India, …), …)
plus
Every death by French capitalism (Colonialism/colonial wars (North America, Caribbeans, Africa, South east Asia, …), Slave trade, Massacres against independence movements (Algeria, Haiti, …), …)
plus
Every death by Belgian capitalism (Colonialism/Colonial wars (Congo, …), Slave trade, Massacres against independence movements, …)
plus
Every death by United States’ capitalism (Colonialism/Colonial wars (Cuba, Hawaii, Philipines, North America, …), Massacres against independence movements (South east Asia, Oceania, Cuba, …), Slave trade, …)
plus
Every death by German capitalism (Nama and Herero genocide, Holocaust, Slave trade, …)
plus
Every death caused by preventable starvation, lack of access to water, healthcare.
List very much non-exhaustive.
If you add it all up you easily get over 1 Billion.
communism hasn’t been tried enough
A certain Mr. Lenin would like a word
Man Communism needs to step those numbers up.
Maybe if they just made some kind of Great Leap Forward, they too could kill hundreds of millions.
Good thing the Black Book of Communism, the only source asserting a number as high as 100 million deaths due to Communism, has been thoroughly debunked due to errors such as
- Counting Nazis killed during World War II as deaths due to Communism
- Counting non-births as deaths due to Communism
- Counting people killed by the Nazis as deaths due to Communism
- Making numbers up in order to hit the 100 million mark for the “clickbait” of it all
- And much, much more.
So how many millions after the debunk we have to write down by leaders like Stalin, Mao, Pol Pot and others?
Historical numbers vary, but I recommend checking historians using data from after the opening of the Soviet Archives. I also wouldn’t count Pol Pot as a genuine Communist leader, and not out of any “no true Communism” nonsense, he legitimately denounced Marxism and had a form of “Communism” utterly divorced from the Marxist canon.
One thing to keep in mind is that extremely frequently, deaths due to natural forces like drought-induced famine or otherwise are counted as “excess” deaths, which is a dishonest framing. No genuine Marxist would say there were no excess deaths in Socialist states, such would be taking an idealist analysis that infantilizes the genuine revolutionary struggles faced internally and externally by the proletariat. However, we do affirm that historical evidence overwhelmingly favors the Communist assertion that excess deaths were rather minimal when compared to peer Capitalist nations.
It takes critique based on material reality, not propagandized mythology, in order to correctly contextualize what went right and what went wrong in historical applications of Socialism, so that any future excess can be minimized to the best of our abilities. To adopt the bourgeois line is to adopt the stance that trying to implement Socialism is inherently evil, thus we must shed light on history and take a genuine critique, one that is proletarian in perspective.
Somewhat poetically, the rhetorical battleground for future and present Socialism is often rooted in historical interpretation of Socialism’s practice. That’s why historians play a vital role in fighting for a better world.
The Chinese communism revolution killed a shit lot of peoples. I hate capitalism but you have to be objective .also there were less comunism countries to begin with so yeah you can do what you want with statistics but its worth nothing more than a cry/Chad wojack
Meanwhile in the real world
Between 1950 and 1980, China experienced the most rapid sustained increase in life expectancy of any population in documented global history. We know of no study that has quantitatively assessed the relative importance of the various explanations proposed for this gain in survival. We have created and analysed a new, province-level panel data set spanning the decades between 1950 and 1980 by combining historical information from China’s public health archives, official provincial yearbooks, and infant and child mortality records contained in the 1988 National Survey of Fertility and Contraception. Although exploratory, our results suggest that gains in school enrolment and public health campaigns together are associated with 55-70 per cent of China’s dramatic reductions in infant and under-5 mortality during our study period. These results underscore the importance of non-medical determinants of population health, and suggest that, in some circumstances, general education of the population may amplify the effectiveness of public health interventions.
https://pubmed.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/25495509/
Should do an AMA on what it’s like to put those clown shoes on every morning.
Wow calm down you know you can talk normally to people , you dont need to insult them. Also I dont know if I m a clown but at least I know that when you tell to every peoples who make food : go make iron , it dont go very well at least on the moment. Also this does not contradict the fact that this graphic is based on data that is not worth comparing because the number of country /time spend under Communism and capitalism are completely different .
Edit: Also https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Great_Chinese_Famine so yeah 30MILLION DEATH ,more than WW2 , so I wasnt even wrong
I love how when faced with an actual paper showing how life expectancy increased, you counter with wikipedia further highlighting your intellectual prowess. The idiocy of your “argument” is to ignore what life expectancy was like BEFORE the revolution, and the fact that famines were already a common occurrence. If you spend a bit of time actually understanding the subject before opining on it, then you’ll be able to avoid making a clown of yourself in public in the future. Maybe start by actually reading the paper I linked.
Yes and whats your point 16-30million death is ok if life expectancy increase drastically? The post compare the number of death and I was talking about that . . I linked a wikipedia link just because I dont have more time to take for you but this famine is documented , its not something that is not verified . also again you are clearly arrogant so the clown that I am will not respond to your next taunt .
No, my point is that less people died overall compared to the way things were previously. It’s incredible that you’re struggling so hard to understand this. You linked wikipedia because skimming through wiki links is peak intellectual engagement for you. I’m glad to see that I won’t have to read more of your drivel going forward. Bye.
You’re literally blaming communists for the deaths of a civil war with multiple factions and you’re compaining about being objective lmao. Are you even aware of the conditions that led to the civil war in China? These events do not happen in a vacuum you know?
If we are to be 100% objective, the Chinese Revolution also saved millions. Life expectancy doubled, and hundreds of millions have been lifted out of poverty. We also know that the Black Book of Communism has long been debunked, it included made up numbers, Nazis killed during World War II as victims of Communism, and non-births as deaths.
We also know that the Black Book of Communism has long been debunked
According to Wikipedia, even a few of its own co-authors have denounced it, saying the main author was obsessed with inflating the numbers.
Yep, it’s a notoriously bad book.
